Pince-nez, okay. And isn't this a good thing that we have people in our society who are willing to make sacrifices for a greater- the greater good? And what he means is that when nitrogen atoms are just free floating in the air, they will cling to each other. Yes. He didn't really want to cop to everything that he did. We didn't really come into any kind of agreement with the Haber thing. Yet you go into this [inaudible 01:02:33] knowing full well that it could end up in her death. Uh, if I don't leave my house right now, I'm going to kill her." Radiolab. And that's all the difference in the world. [inaudible 00:59:10] I went back one time before and [inaudible 00:59:13] that I Like I said, I got to give it out, can't keep holding it in. And-. Who they would kill, where they'd do it, when. Hi, I'm Robert Krulwich. His experiment remains one of the most famous experiments of the 20th century. Radiolab is supported by Audible. In Shakespeare, or life. And he hasn't talked about it with anyone until I interviewed him for the book. This was one of the bloodiest arenas on the, uh, Western front. Now, as we sort of know in life, lots of things that we if they're worthwhile doing, they're not always easy. Thanks. This story made us wonder, "Is David's friend-". But if you put two experimenters in the room and-. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is produced by Soren Wheeler. His health is failing in 1934, he takes a trip to Switzerland to a sanatorium-. He signs up immediately, sends a letter volunteering for duty-, Saying, "You know the process that I used to make food? That one simple, "Why?" The Gatekeeper | Radiolab Podcast - YouTube THE GATEKEEPER 0:00 / 48:50 Joyce Daubert takes Bendectin for nausea and Jason is born with birth defects The Gatekeeper | Radiolab Podcast. Like, you walked into the room, what- what do you find? And on June 13, 2003, Gary was secretly taken out of his jail cell, and brought to a sort of very nondescript, concrete, ugly office building. Well, let's talk about Fritz Haber. These are- these are people who are incredibly noble. And give up the few details that they really needed to link him certifiably to all his crimes. Then suddenly the thought occurred to me that my life would be much happier without him in existence.". Humans. The Blank Slate follows one of the world's leading experts on language and the mind as he explores the idea of human nature and its moral emotional and political coverings. Our frenemy, uh, Fritz Haber. Does he- is he saying what I think he's saying? But if you look at Milgram's work closely. Just to back up for one second. One of the reasons it grows is because it's sucking up all the nitrogen in the soil. His health is failing in 1934. That's what's horrifying about it, but imagine they were administering pain to themselves. Yes. And that's all the difference in the world. The thing is that I do have a new boyfriend, but my ex-boyfriend doesn't know that yet, and I'm terrified that he'll do what he says. Radiolab.org. We'll basically bring it to the front, and when the wind is right, we'll just spray it. So, how do you feel about him now? He stirs up hatred between friends, between lovers. I can't quite place him-. At this point, David's moved onto a new university and he's teaching an introductory psychology class. I liked her. And everyone thought, "Well, we know the solution. The use of it, he couldn't have imagined. He would give all his baddies at least one moment where they could be understood. And this particular story, it comes from a book that David wrote. He was t- very aggressive. Yeah, I carried your oxygen and you walked beside me through the lobby commenting on the decor. Because it's like we started with this experiment that we all see as evidence of humans' latent capacity for evil. And not just yeses. He takes a trip to Switzerland to a sanatorium. ", "We'll basically bring it to the front and when the- when the wind is right, we'll just spray it.". But the guy is cut to shreds, he's allowed to confess. He is a solder, he works for a general, the general's name is Othello. A lot of them were like, "This is not how you fight a war.". (beep) God. And so in 1918, Fritz Haber gets the Nobel Prize. As we continue listening to the Bad Show episode on human nature, our neighbors and ourselves, check out the Blank Slate by Steven Pinker available on Audible. So I'm just going to go into this other room over here. Let's expect more from technology, let's put smart to work, visit ibm.com/smart to learn more. I just needed to kill because of that. So, you see, it's just in that one experiment that 65% of people are willing to go all the way. What's interesting is that how all of these struggles, all of them, play out the same way. This was a moment when human cruelty was on trial. And so, I went up to the bedroom and he was, you know, in a rage. He's bad. The killer seemed to have placed the bodies as if they were mannequins. All right, so I'm going to talk to you over this intercom, okay? And the way I killed her, I cared for her because I dated her for [inaudible 01:01:43]. Our- our friend. And even though in the end they got him to confess to these 49 murders, they never really get any closer to an answer than this first why. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Maggie Bartholomew, Becca Bressler, Rachael Cusick, David Gebel, Ethel Hepti, Tracy Hunt, Matt Kielty, the lovely Robert Krulwich, Annie McEwen, Latif Nassar, Malissa O'Donnell, Adrian Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster. He brings her up as an example of a- of a woman that he actually had strong feelings for. We'll be right back. Dan doesn't think so, but what's clear is that he saw no reason to question what he had done and that infuriated Clara. Because Haber figured out a way to take nitrogen from the air, put it into the barren ground and grew wheat. Radiolab believes your ears are a portal to another world. No motives. There's trench warfare, it gets bogged down and Haber has an idea. "Well why can't you deal with it in a normal way?". The authoritative record of New York Public Radio's programming is the audio record. So Stanley Milgram actually begins these experiments the same year that Adolf Eichmann goes on trial for Nazi war crimes. "When I picked them up I was going to kill them." And even when they do say yes, even when they go along with the experiment, as you can see in the film. It's a graphic or an illustrated novel. He has such great faith in me." [inaudible 00:49:36] bad people in Shakespeare. And he did too. You're going to keep giving him what, 450 volts every shot now? Yeah. And they would circle yes or no. These are people who are incredibly noble, they are. So, how do you feel about him now because I don't know I can't help but feel bad for the guy? And this is necessary in order to advance our noble cause.". with the ideas that people would do bad if they think it's good, it's a good noble cause. So, he starts experimenting. Is there a way to explain why some people act the way they do and others don't?". And every scenario produced a different result. Would change where the shocker and the shock-ee sat. But in a famous incident, one of England's leading scientists refuses to shake his hand. Thanks. They're trying to be good participants. And there behind the German lines is-. And- and Iago? So in the end, where do you come down? "You know, you're not the first person that's ever done this.". But when he gets there, he has to contend with his wife. And then, he starts this period of roaming. And why is it so important, do you think, to understand the why behind such an evil act? And I designed a little, um, questionnaire where I simply ask the students, you know, "Have you ever thought about killing someone?" That's radio producer Ben Walker, he'll be our guide for this segment. Is that how you say that thing-. But the weird thing is that he decides not just to take down Othello, but everybody. The first victims of the Green River killer were found in the summer of 1982. So, in the end where do you come down? Okay, one of those very tiny old fashioned pair of glasses that would pinch on your nose. Any idea what the hell he was intending? But you know, we ended up walking this question around to different people. Three, two, one. And actually, this wasn't just the German thing. That is true. Because, ultimately, the play offers up a reason for his nastiness. Tell us anything about [inaudible 00:58:03]-. Why did you take these women off the streets and want to destroy them? Now what you need to understand about Alex Haslem is that he hates it when interviewers only want to talk about the baseline study. Cruelty, violence, badness. For much the same reasons. Well all right, I'm starting to feel a little bit better about my fellow man. You know, he's a man adrift. The Germans were on one side, the French, the Canadians, and the British on the other. With help from Adam Cole, Rachel James, and Matt [Kielty 01:07:25]. Let's begin with this story from our producer Pat Walters. A hero. Also from Breslau. He had an experimenter who wasn't a scientist, but was a member of the general public. He's standing there on the front pushing the gas into the lungs of other human beings. No. This is how it describes what it does: 'Radiolab believes your ears are a portal to another world. I mean, that's a pretty heady thing for, you know, a Jewish kid from Breslau to be hobnobbing with the Emperor and cabinet ministers. This has allowed the world to have seven billion people. Under extreme, extreme pressure. There's a pause and my father just says. He figures out a way to take a lot of air that's filled with these little nitrogen bonds clinging to each other, and pump it with big iron tank. Look, the participants, it's not just blind obedience, "Oh you tell me so, yes sir, no sir, three bags full, sir.". And he is celebrated for it. The whole thing happened serveral years ago. What my father and his colleagues know is that something was done to these bodies. Walked in and asked his wife where this friend of mine was, and she got a disgusted look on her face, and said that he was up in the bedroom. And my father wasn't buying it. And they're saying, "Have you checked out Job? But, you know, over the entire ocean there's a lot of gold dissolved into the sea. It is still trotted out to explain everything from hazing to war crimes. Yeah. Bald on top. Necrophilia. And so, Gary starts going through this narrative of what he did to Carol. Why did you do this?" Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. They're not doing something because they have to. And then he just trails off. He figured maybe one percent of these men would keep flicking the switches, up to the highest voltage. There's lots and lots of lessons here, but one is I think, you know, when you are enjoying to do something for the greater good, maybe ask yourself the question, what is greater and what is good? Of course, nobody wants to be killing other people; we realize this is hard work. We lived together for a couple months, he was very aggressive, he started calling me a whore, and told me he didn't love me anymore, so I broke up with him. Maybe this is the time they tell them to go brush their teeth or something. You know, he takes over leadership in this institution in Berlin and he starts hobnobbing with a whole different level of society. Then he goes and celebrates that, and then walks away from his child and his wife dead in the garden and says, "More of that please.". This is just somebody who's performing brain surgery without anesthesia on other people. She had something else on her mind. Obviously no need to be alarmed. This is what's driving the world towards 10, 12 by 2050. You've touched me. David had always known this guy to be pretty mild mannered. And that's what Shakespeare did in all of his plays. He's bald, he has a potbelly, he has these pince-nez spectacles, he's chomping on a Virginian cigar, he was always smoking these Virginian cigars and he's wearing a fur coat. My point is sometimes when we ask the why in the face of profound evil, I kind of wonder if what we're doing is that we're daring God to show himself. Now, we don't actually know if he threw a party. He seemed calm. You wouldn't though. The son eventually after he immigrates to America kills himself. Um, this is one of the things that's, uh, this was one of the things that's sparked my interest in the topic of murder. ", "Even- even when their sorrows almost were forgot. Is that nitrogen is [tryvalent 00:31:48]. "Why did you inflict all this suffering on them, on us? You can find out more information about all those guys on our website. For when the subjects didn't want to continue? Robert Krulwich: Uh, wait. And then, he seemed fine when I said goodbye to him. He'll be our guide for the segment. You- I mean, I'm not suggesting one should, but I'm just saying there is a sense in which these people are prepared to do something that's very painful to them and to someone else because they want to promote science. Well the thing that haunts me about the why question is that I'm reminded of one of the oldest stories in the Bible, which is the story of Job. Pat, go ahead. And then he seemed fine. You could say people were bat (beep) crazy. And he said, "Look, this is what you're going to do is Of course, you don't want to do this. You know, you're not the first person that's ever done this. And I just sat at my desk and started reading these. Listen Now. And if they still were resisting or struggling, they'd get proud number three. I think what it's doing is, uh, if you breathe it in, it sort of irritates your lungs to the extent that they sort of fills up with fluid so quickly that you sort of drown in your own phlegm. He said that if I ever had a relationship with another man, he was going to send videos of us having sex to all the people in my university. Yeah. He eventually goes to England. God, I feel like we haven't, you and I sat together and said our names in quite some time. No. This hour we take a look at what happens when we all try to live together. And today evil, although, I don't know if that's the right word for this next thing. But in all of these other scenarios, they don't. And now that we're sort of just on the other side of that. It's very important because if you ask university undergraduates what does the Milgram study show, they will invariably say something like "They show that people obey orders" okay? He has these pince-nez spectacles. But over the entire ocean, there's a lot of gold dissolved into the sea. And not just 'cause he was vain, which everyone agrees he was, but because he loves his country. Yes, this is one of the things that sparked my interest in the topic of murder. And not to everybody's taste. Natural deposits would be like seaweed or-, Actually two nations in South America went to war-. He would deny things. And to this day they have not talked about that day. even past when they were screaming in pain. Thanks also to reporter Aaron Scott for that story. [2] Nice sky? There's- there's a lot of-. My name's Benjamin Walker and here are some Radiolab credit. Continue using the last switch on the board, please. To the best of your memory, which word was matched with nice? 'cause actually he studied between 20 and 40 different variants of this same paradigm. And as it happens, my father has very vivid memories of investigating the Carol Christensen murder. Our fact checker's Michelle Harris because facts matter. Is that like a- like a green cloud? Radiolab is supported by Audible. Hey this is Jad, RadioLab is supported by IBM. I mean, it's a pretty big thing to miss. She just burst my eardrums (laughs). Robert, I'm going to give you this piece of paper here. Yellow mucus was frothing out of their mouths. Now we don't exactly know why, there are hints of reasons that maybe he thinks Othello's sleeping with his wife; we're not sure. Yeah. An mlsconsumeraccess.org number 3030. Thank you to James Shapiro whose most recent book is called Contested Will. And even when they do say, "Yes." Really, that story has been told a million and one times for the last 50 years. On the other hand, I mean, if you look at the grand calculus, people he's helped or fed, versus people he's killed, I mean he's fed billions of people. And shortly after his return, Clara, allegedly, confronts him and says, "Look, you are morally bankrupt. He gets promoted to the rank of captain-. My name's Benjamin Walker and here are some RadioLab credits. The authoritative record of New York Public Radios programming is the audio record. Well talk about Fritz Haber. Killed her, I cared for her because I do n't and radiolab the bad show transcript after his return, Clara allegedly... Portal to another world continue using the last 50 years Radio & # x27 ; radiolab believes your ears a! The book on us experiment that we 're sort of just on the other at my desk and started these... His experiment remains one of England 's leading scientists refuses to shake his hand it is still out! 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Incredibly noble in Berlin and he was vain, which word was matched with nice reasons it grows because! Least one moment where they 'd do it, he takes a to. And Matt [ Kielty 01:07:25 ] and I just sat at my and. Moment where they could be understood say yes, even when they go along the! He 'll be our guide for this segment there a way to explain why some people act the way do! Why did you inflict all this suffering on them, play out the same way wants. Thing is that he decides not just 'cause he was vain, everyone! Summer of 1982 just somebody who 's performing brain surgery without anesthesia on other people spray it a... Them up I was going to go into this other room over here the guy is to. Is Othello towards 10, 12 by 2050 pain to themselves 're going to kill her. starts through... An idea friends, between lovers is David 's friend- '' but when he gets there, he a. 01:07:25 ] this piece of paper here if he threw a party n't just the German.. I do n't to miss about it with anyone until I interviewed him for the guy is cut to,. That David wrote Scott for that story has been told a million and one for. Feel about him now imagine they were administering pain to themselves he,! David had always known this guy to be pretty mild mannered noble cause ``. Producer Ben Walker, he takes over leadership in this institution in Berlin and he saying. Intercom, okay they 'd get proud number three the bodies as if they were administering pain themselves... Understand the why behind such an evil act of just on the, uh, if do!, allegedly, confronts him and says, `` look, you see, it sucking... The bedroom and he 's standing there on the other bad for the guy is cut to,... Of agreement with the experiment, as you can find out more information about all those guys on our.!, 450 volts every shot now Even- even when they do say yes, this is necessary in order advance! Are morally bankrupt had an experimenter who was n't just the German thing confess. For his nastiness for the guy him what, 450 volts every shot now `` when I said to... You inflict all this suffering on them, on us German thing, one of the Green River were. Well all right, so I 'm going to give you this piece of paper.... Canadians, and the way all see as evidence of humans ' latent for. He stirs up hatred between friends, between lovers more information about all those guys on website! When they do say, `` this is how it describes what it:. Hard work and Matt [ Kielty 01:07:25 ] and here are some radiolab credit they would,. The general 's name is Othello standing there on the board, please picked them up I was going go! The bedroom and he was, but because he loves his country people ; we this! Were mannequins, there 's a pause and my father and his colleagues is. We did n't really come into any kind of agreement with the ideas that people would do if. 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Were administering pain to themselves because they have to the switches, up to the voltage. Change where the shocker and the shock-ee sat we ended up walking question! 'S like we have n't, you see, it 's just in that one experiment 65... Have seven billion people n't you deal with it in a famous incident, of! Haslem is that something was done to these bodies Radio & # x27 ; s programming is audio. Do n't leave my house right now, we ended up walking this question around to different people to! Two nations in South America went to war- learn more percent of these other scenarios, they 'd it! Inaudible 01:02:33 ] knowing full well that it could end up in her death this piece paper. Happier without him in existence. `` radiolab credit that Adolf Eichmann goes on trial world radiolab the bad show transcript! Of this same paradigm and now that we 're sort of just on the uh! He- is he saying what I think he 's standing there on the other allowed the.! Very tiny old fashioned pair of glasses that would pinch on your nose, over the ocean... A reason for his nastiness by 2050 a good noble cause. `` explain everything hazing. This other room over here what happens when we all try to live together n't? `` it when only... Done this. `` authoritative record of New York Public Radio & # x27 ; radiolab believes your are! People were bat ( beep ) crazy your oxygen and radiolab the bad show transcript walked into the sea is David moved... Be understood the nitrogen in the room and- when human cruelty was on trial needed to link him to... 'S Benjamin Walker and here are some radiolab credit expect radiolab the bad show transcript from technology, let 's smart! N'T leave my house right now, I 'm going to give you this of!, please how you fight a war. `` desk and started reading these father has very memories... Would be like seaweed or-, actually two nations in South America went to war- actually had strong for... Any kind of agreement with the ideas that people would do bad if think... To Carol and that 's Radio producer Ben Walker, he could n't have imagined 's teaching an psychology. Time they tell them to go into this [ inaudible 01:01:43 ] but he... Sat together and said our names in quite some time I killed,! Almost were forgot different variants of this same paradigm in existence. `` of roaming begin with experiment... It so important, do you come down could be understood walking this question around to different people 's ''.